Cost of training and Sport Pilot certification

[Lieutenant Dan USMC]

Hey everyone,

I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of my powrachute but had some questions in regards to training. The folks at powrachute recommended a fellow in Florida to train with - he seems like a great person to learn from and looks to be a very experienced CFI. He is going to charge $2,000 for ground school, flying and administering the exam. I will provide all of the equipment, fuel/oil, and publications.

How does this fair in comparison to other instructors/flight schools?


Thanks for any input,

[Danal Estes]

Most of my engagement with CFIs has been via an hourly rate. Ground school is typically fixed price. But, this CFI is giving you a fixed price for all of it.

Cool. Maybe.

Anytime there is a fixed price for something that will take variable amounts of labor (e.g. are you a quick or slow student? How many flight hours will you need)... you are essentially paying the supplier a 'fee' to stabilize the price.

With an hourly rate, you have risk: You may be fast or slow... and you therefore pay less or more.

With a fixed price, you pay the supplier to take that same risk: They will calculate a reasonable balance point based on their experience, and if you are a quick enough student to take LESS time than that, they come out ahead. If you are slow, they have to keep flying you for no more money. You are assigning that variance to them, and paying up front for that privilege.

So, it all depends on how you want to manage the price. There's no right or wrong answer... just whichever method YOU want.

==============================

To me, that number sounds OK for doing all the flying in your aircraft. Here's some ways to look at it:

Assume you need the 20 hour minimum. (By the way, it is very UN typical to hit the absolute min.) Assume he charges $60 an hour (a typical rate) for just him (no aircraft). That is $1200 dollars, leaving $800 for "ground school".

Assume you need 30 hours $1800/$200 for flight/ground.

If his rate is higher per hour, the amount allocated to GS goes down, of course.

Assume you need 40 (also UN typical, too high). It would be $2400 and he's 400 "in the hole".

So, is his ground school worth somewhere between $800 to $-400? What is the ground school really? Could you instead read all the books, ask questions here, ask fellow pilots, do online computer checks, and therefore obtain enough 'book learning' knowledge for 'free'? Probably... But having him be your ground instructor has quite a bit of value; he can tie the ground/flight lessons together.


Another way to look at it, is to take the 'risk' view described above. He's charging you only a few hundred for ground school and the rest is a fee for having a fixed price on flight hours, and he's at some risk of losing money.

===========================

Having said all of that, only you can decide what you want to pay:

1) Per flight hour, for the instructor
2) For the instructor to give you a fixed price for all the flying
3) For ground school

To me, when broken down by these categories, it sounds like a reasonable number.

[AirSportAdventures]

Originally Posted by Lieutenant Dan USMC

Hey everyone,

I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of my powrachute but had some questions in regards to training. The folks at powrachute recommended a fellow in Florida to train with - he seems like a great person to learn from and looks to be a very experienced CFI. He is going to charge $2,000 for ground school, flying and administering the exam. I will provide all of the equipment, fuel/oil, and publications.

How does this fair in comparison to other instructors/flight schools?


Thanks for any input,

Hi Dan

If this is a 10 to 14 day accelerated course, it's a very good price. If you're going to fly on weekends or a couple of days a week, it's a reasonable rate. However, is this a guarantee course or only for the minimums of 10 hours of dual and 2 hours of supervised solo? If the $2,000 is for for just the minimums, you may be looking at a much higher cost. Students not taking the accelerated course go well beyond 10 hours of flight training.

[phil]

Originally Posted by Lieutenant Dan USMC

Hey everyone,

I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of my powrachute but had some questions in regards to training. The folks at powrachute recommended a fellow in Florida to train with - he seems like a great person to learn from and looks to be a very experienced CFI. He is going to charge $2,000 for ground school, flying and administering the exam. I will provide all of the equipment, fuel/oil, and publications.

How does this fair in comparison to other instructors/flight schools?


Thanks for any input,

Dan,
yes it is a very good price.
Do you currently hold a U.S pilot certificate?
Are you a current military rated pilot?
You mention that the CFI will administer the exam.

If the CFI who is training you is also a DPE, he will need another CFI to be the recommending instructor so that he can do your practical test/check ride.

If you have a U.S pilot certificate, then you still need another CFI to be the recommending instructor so that he (the training CFI) may administer the proficiency check, which is the same as a practical test. There is no instance in any flight training scenario where the training CFI can also do the practical without a different CFI being the recommending instructor. The recommending instructor must fly with you for 1 hour before recommending you back for the practical test.

If you don't have a U.S. pilot certificate (a student pilot certificate does not count in any of the scenarios I am discussing) then you will need to take & pass the FAA written knowledge test, and that can only be administered at an FAA testing center (CATS or Lasergrade)

[Danal Estes]

Hey Mike, you're talking 10 or 12 hours, and I was assuming 20... but I got that 20 from a very quick search and could very easily be wrong. So, educate me: What is the legal minimum for starting from zero and going to Sport Pilot?




Dan: Do you have any kind of Pilot Certificate at present?

[Lieutenant Dan USMC]

Thanks to all -

Sounds like it may be a fair cost since I will be training on the weekends. Since I fly for the military right now, but do not have a private pilots license or instrument rating (yet), I may need to take the FAA exam. I have taken this exam and passed it to begin flight training, so I am not sure whether or not I will need to take it again.

Basically I have completed Introductory Flight Screening (IFS) for about 40 hours flight time, and Primary Flight Training (not sure how many hours, but it was a good 10 months of flying most every day).

This being said, I feel I need to review many of the aspects of civil aviation that we were required to know for IFS. I have no flight experience in a powered parachute - therefore will need flight instruction. In terms of the cross-country, flight planning portion of the course, I feel confident with this material. But, if all of the course is required as a set package, I would gladly take it as it never hurts to review these things. And since they will be specific to PPCs, I can see how reviewing them would be extremely worthwhile.

Thanks again for all the replies. Anyone else have any advice for preparing to train?


Thanks,

[AirSportAdventures]

Originally Posted by Danal Estes

Hey Mike, you're talking 10 or 12 hours, and I was assuming 20... but I got that 20 from a very quick search and could very easily be wrong. So, educate me: What is the legal minimum for starting from zero and going to Sport Pilot?

Dan: Do you have any kind of Pilot Certificate at present?

Hi Danal

For someone with no pilot's certificate, a student must satisfy ***§61.313(g)**corrected. This includes 10 hours of flight training and 2 hours of solo flight training. Students who take my accelerated course passed their practical between 10.5 and 12 hours of flight training. I've had a lot of success with this program and students prefer it if they can take the time off.

Airplanes, LTA, Trikes and Rotorcraft require 20 hours of flight training - dual as we use to call it.

My "weekend warriors" students average 15 or more hours of dual. The main variables are frequency of training and individual learning curve. The longer a student stretches out their training, the longer it takes to be ready for the practical exam.

If they hold a pilot's certificate there are no minimums. And if their knowledge is current it reduces training time. Most of the private pilots I've trained, with no category experience were ready for their proficiency exam in 7 to 8 hours of dual.

When BFIs were transitioning to sport pilot, I remember one was ready in about the 4 hours. If you were a BFI on or before September 1, 2004, you could take your SP practical exam by presenting your letter from your ultralight organization. No prior logbook endorsement was required. But, a wise BFI took some training to prepare for their practical.

[phil]

Originally Posted by AirSportAdventures

Hi Danal

For someone with no pilot's certificate, a student must satisfy §61.311(g).

Mike,
The reg is 61.313(g) that states the minimums required.
61.311 is the areas of operation that need to be covered, as appropriate for category/class during the flight training.

[AirSportAdventures]

Originally Posted by phil

Mike,
The reg is 61.313(g) that states the minimums required.
61.311 is the areas of operation that need to be covered, as appropriate for category/class during the flight training.

Opps! Thanks for the correction! Hey Woody, you got another one to crow about! But only after you explain your bad rigging advice in the Yahoo group

Danal's question was about the aeronautical experience requirements and §61.311(g) is about soaring, so it was clearly a typo.

[Danal Estes]

Hey thanks Michael. That clarifies the 10/12/20 quite well.